rta_mostyn ([info]rta_mostyn) wrote,
@ 2009-07-05 12:47:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend  Next Entry
Excerpt from the theory notebooks
It may be overly axiomatic to claim that Order defines things as what they are not, as much as it defines them as what they are. This is straightforward and obvious enough as to need little comment. Yet, as with any good axiom, it leads to other theories, and therein lie the complications. If it defines the what-is and what-is-not, where does that leave chaos, which ought to fill in the lines and skins of definition? Where is the room for anything other than order, when such a definition leaves so little space for anything but itself?

I believe that the matter to keep in mind is that a definition of a thing is not that thing. Consider a simple sphere, infinitely thin and empty within, entirely theoretical, compared to every equation needed to represent it. I could write those equations very simply, and even extrapolate from them a few interesting others based on peculiarities of unreal geometry. Yet none of this conjures up this impossible sphere; it is merely numbers on paper, and the thin smear of graphite across the surface of dried wood pulp has more reality than all those perfected numbers.

Nonetheless, there is a connection between the numbers and the reality. If a real, imperfect sphere appears, I may draw several conclusions about them, and define much of its nature to someone who cannot pick up something like this little glass bulb lying on my desk, through the appropriate numbers. With enough numbers and words, someone I have never spoken with, a thousand years from now, might be able to recreate another little glass bulb just like this one, so near its twin that even with more specialized tools we could not tell the two apart when laid next to each other. (I ignore, for the moment, the inevitable effects of time on the original. We assume a theoretical comparison, one against the other, each at the same age.)

If the reality can become numbers, and numbers reality again, where is the cold, sharp line between the two? I believe that is the fissure through which chaos seeps, and animates the inert. From numbers to physical representation requires conscious action. It may be a thousand actions spread across a thousand actors, worked through machines that click along doing what they were made to do without any deliberation of their own, but even so at some point those machines were made by someone to interpret the numbers. The collection of numbers was performed through action and intent, even if it was in making yet another machine that would discover them and pass them along. One may theorize an entire city of nothing but machinery, whirring along with analysis of the world and then recreation of it, moving between numbers and reality seamlessly, and yet somewhere someone has been the origin of all of this.

That is where the chaos hides when one attempts to reduce everything to order. It lies in decisions, even those decisions made with one intention that produce the opposite result. There is no perfect static state for the world, because perfection involves the true nature of things, and too many things have true natures that require motion and change. Too many things have natures set in opposition to other natures, and so any perfection of one must oppose the perfection of another. The immovable object and the irresisitable force cannot coexist.

Except perhaps they can, in a universe of so many worlds. The immovable object sits in one shadow, perfect. The irresistable force in another, rampaging all through its finite world, never stopped. If they cannot meet each other, does it matter that they cannot coexist? There they are, both perfectly true within their own spheres of reality or unreality.

And so it all comes down to context again, of which I never have enough...



(37 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]addison_rta
2009-07-05 09:45 pm UTC (link)
I think where your thinking has gone wrong is that you are trying to pull apart the mathematical or drafted plan of your model and the physical processes that go in to producing the finished product. There are variations in process everywhere -- in the materials used, in the level and evenness of heating, the quality of manufacture, etc. You're right that with your mathematical model someone can produce the same object 1,000 years from now, but variation will creep into the physical actual process of creating an actual object.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-05 09:47 pm UTC (link)
You're entirely correct, though that in turn leads me to a sort of linked pair of conclusions: if imperfections leak in, either the mathematical model is insufficiently precise, or the person doing the creation is. So clearly the solution is to perfect both, and so avoid the production of errors and variances along the way.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]addison_rta
2009-07-05 09:50 pm UTC (link)
You can perfect your mathematical model to take into account the chaotic variations in production of an object. It will take a vast amount of time to study, catalogue, and model the imperfections but you likely could.

It is less likely you can perfect the person doing the creation without doing something awful to the person in question.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-05 09:52 pm UTC (link)
"Awful" is such a terrible way of describing the Something involved without having seen it done to anyone yet. Wouldn't making someone better at a type of item-creation they already wish to be skilled in be a marvelous thing?

Or perhaps it's simpler to create a machine that translates mathematics to items, and then perfect the machine. Imperfections must be removed somewhere along the way, but it needn't necessarily be among the people.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]glanworth_rta
2009-07-05 09:54 pm UTC (link)
I see nothing wrong with perfect machines making more perfect machines.
I'll get to work on the prototypes.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-05 09:56 pm UTC (link)
Excellent! We ought to discuss details and mechanical recursion at some point.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]addison_rta
2009-07-05 09:55 pm UTC (link)
A machine would make your process more repeatable and more dependable but if there are flaws in the machine there will be flaws in your process and still get slight variations in your output product. And the machine itself is still subject to wear and tear, imperfections in its own manufacture, and the ravages of time.

From where you're standing, it's turtles all the way down.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-05 09:56 pm UTC (link)
That's why one needs to perfect the machine. And perhaps also perfect the machines used to maintain it, which can, ideally, also repair each other. Perhaps the turtles eventually curve about in a circle again. There is a great deal to be said for circles, in Order.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]addison_rta
2009-07-05 10:02 pm UTC (link)
Somehow I am suddenly very very very afraid.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-05 10:04 pm UTC (link)
I can't see why. What could possibly go wrong with a self-contained infinite loop system that maintains itself while working towards a higher goal? Especially if it's all been perfected!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]addison_rta
2009-07-05 10:06 pm UTC (link)
Maybe it could destroy the universe?
Maybe it could decide to replace all mankind? All REBMANKIND?
Maybe it will become a God Emperor of some sandy planet?
Maybe it will churn out a better widget?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-05 10:08 pm UTC (link)
I'm reasonably certain that the chances of such a thing destroying the entire universe or actually succeeding in replacing all of mankind are low enough to be insignificant, when the system has been properly designed. And who would build such a system without making sure the design was proper?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]addison_rta
2009-07-05 10:09 pm UTC (link)
Can you build a perfect machine with an imperfect design?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-05 10:11 pm UTC (link)
What a fascinating question. It depends on whether or not one takes it as self-evident that a design that produces a perfect machine must itself be perfect. After all, one can get the right answer from a mathematical equation performed entirely incorrectly.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]addison_rta
2009-07-05 10:43 pm UTC (link)
Yes, but isn't that a fluke? Wouldn't you want a perfect design for the perfect machine? And doesn't that assume that the designer of the machine is capable of designing the perfect machine and thus, the designs are also perfect?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-05 10:54 pm UTC (link)
Yes, it is rather a fluke. Possible, but highly unlikely. Ideally, one would have a perfect design. It's entirely possible that this would require multiple slightly imperfect designers working together to catch each other's mistakes and correct them, though this, of course, is not necessarily a foolproof plan.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]addison_rta
2009-07-05 11:37 pm UTC (link)
You are forever stuck with the issue that the actual designer (intelligent designer?) cannot create a mathematically correct plan that is perfect enough to generate your perfect machine even if it is created by other machines.

See? Turtles. All the way down.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-05 11:42 pm UTC (link)
It is at this point that we begin tapping into the power of pure, primal Order, and things become both very interesting and very complex, very very rapidly.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]addison_rta
2009-07-05 11:44 pm UTC (link)
I will send over to the Rebman Embassy a very small turtle.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-05 11:49 pm UTC (link)
I'm not certain that I can make a turtle stack out of a single turtle, but it is worth trying.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]addison_rta
2009-07-06 12:03 am UTC (link)
How about two? Can you make a turtle stack out of two?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-06 12:06 am UTC (link)
Yes, but if I want a turtle stack that gets recursive, I'd need at least three for a turtle triangle.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]addison_rta
2009-07-06 12:17 am UTC (link)
Perhaps I can see what I can do in the turtle stack and triangle department.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]benedict_rta
2009-07-06 12:55 am UTC (link)
No, you just need to hit two together very hard.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-06 01:04 am UTC (link)
Now there's a novel approach from the sort of man who can wield an eggbeater one-handed. I'll have to add it to my list of hypotheses to test, once I finish building this adorable little turtle habitat and writing up tiny employee identification cards for these three turtles.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]gil_karm
2009-07-05 09:58 pm UTC (link)
"Imperfections must be removed somewhere along the way, but it needn't necessarily be among the people."

The problem comes when the machines think the people are the imperfections that need removing.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-05 10:00 pm UTC (link)
You know, you have an excellent point there. It's not an implausible conclusion for machines to reach, if they're equipped to do that level of thought. Perhaps this is something that could bear some experimentation to discover the results of such a situation.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]gil_karm
2009-07-05 10:03 pm UTC (link)
Usually, there's leakage of fluids involved.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-05 10:04 pm UTC (link)
Are we talking about oil, or blood? Because I'm almost certain a machine can be made to deal with such things.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]gil_karm
2009-07-05 10:06 pm UTC (link)
Blood, oil, weird white stuff that serves both purposes, ichor...whatever.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-05 10:08 pm UTC (link)
It seems it would have to be a highly versatile machine. I'm sure there are Begmans up for such a challenge.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]gil_karm
2009-07-05 10:12 pm UTC (link)
At this point, the "What could possibly go wrong?" line just hangs there in the air like a buzzard, waiting for the carrion....

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-05 10:14 pm UTC (link)
Clearly the appropriate response is to test the hypothesis and find out the answer to such a question!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]benedict_rta
2009-07-05 10:25 pm UTC (link)
Soylent Green is Rebmans.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-06 12:24 am UTC (link)
Or possibly turtles, at this point. It's rather hard to be sure.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]glanworth_rta
2009-07-05 10:49 pm UTC (link)
Oh, well, we can't have with machines thinking. That right there's a violation of the Second Unbreakable Law.

Highly refined decision-making algorithms, sure. But thinkin? Right out.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]rta_mostyn
2009-07-05 10:52 pm UTC (link)
Oh, then that makes everything much simpler, as it's one less thing to worry about. What a useful law!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(37 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…